Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

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Storms7
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by Storms7 »

SellSword wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:24 pm I fully understand that reasoning.

My thought is that if anyone does not find the current approach satisfactory and believes these issues can be addressed by creating a rule it would be nice to see a proposal. I'm actually encouraging that by suggesting issues to keep in mind.
Agreed.
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madmaniacal1
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by madmaniacal1 »

My issue with this proposal (forgetting about mechanics changes and making complex rules) is the exact same issue we had with clans spamming buildings:
Complex rules tend to be abused, twisted, and cried about. It would have to be checked on a case-by-case basis, resulting in much work for GMs.

Past instances WERE deemed legal, and so a rule to negate that isn't likely, in all honesty. If this is to be changed, an appeal for new mechanics from compbatant is the most viable possibility for change.

As for myself, I am personally against the changes at all. I do NOT support such behavior, but knowing it is a possibility will make one be wary of who they trust, and how much.
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LostKnight
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by LostKnight »

Ninja'd by mm1 but here it is anyway:

Clan rank, although greatly reduced in scope, is kinda like the military, one has to prove him/herself before being promoted.

Member = Basic Training Recruit
Marshal = all Non-Commissioned Officers
Lord = all Officers
Duke = The Prime Minister

Sounds good, simple and affective
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Leone
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by Leone »

madmaniacal1 wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:52 pm My issue with this proposal (forgetting about mechanics changes and making complex rules) is the exact same issue we had with clans spamming buildings:
Complex rules tend to be abused, twisted, and cried about. It would have to be checked on a case-by-case basis, resulting in much work for GMs.

Past instances WERE deemed legal, and so a rule to negate that isn't likely, in all honesty. If this is to be changed, an appeal for new mechanics from compbatant is the most viable possibility for change.

As for myself, I am personally against the changes at all. I do NOT support such behavior, but knowing it is a possibility will make one be wary of who they trust, and how much.
In which case , naming and shaming is vital. Whatever clan you're in - friend or enemy - it's a horrible thing to happen. Or is it behind enemy lines sabotage? You can go round in circles with this.
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TangledSwerve
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by TangledSwerve »

SellSword wrote: Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:07 pm What is your suggestion for a rule?

As I understand the issue a rule would have to cover: (1) allowing clan members to put items into shared storage that other clan members can use without asking for permission, (2) allowing clan members to put items into shared storage that other clan members cannot use unless they ask for permission, (3) allowing clan lords to sell structures without explicit permission of dukes when a duke has allowed open or broad use of powers or acting in the duke's stead, and (4) prohibiting clan lords from selling structures without explicit permission in other situations.

A rule would have to both allow and prohibit the same actions depending on the facts.
Here's the thing: what instance would any Duke be okay with a Lord removing all buildings and stealing all valuable items?
No-one building a clan would. Why is this such a puzzle?

As mentioned before this particular instance falls under the umbrella of rule 9. Especially, since Arthas_M is a known troublemaker. This was not a rival clan seeking to undo another, it was a lone player who has astonishing bad attitude to other players who purposely runs around trying to cause as much upset as he can, when the mood takes him. But beyond this, and its frustrates me to have to repeat this - the action of wiping out entire clans by an errant clan member with a simple click should never have been accepted as valid play within the rules - it should always have been subject to some form of punishment.

This isn't a complex matter, nor should any new rule regarding it be.

How about this:
Any player found to deliberately abuse clan mechanics, afforded to them by privilige of their rank will be subject to punishment. This includes actions that will affect all members such as mass member removal, mass building removal and theft.
Repeated abuse may lead to suspension from clan activity.
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Lestat
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by Lestat »

While you're at it tangled, how about trying to stop random clan attacks too ? Lol. Some parts of being in a clan are not and may not be pleasurable to all, but still can happen. This is the way it is.

Adding people you don't know to a clan and giving them lord is just asking for trouble.

Just curious, if a clan gets attacked and the building (s) seiged away, how is this any different. The duke didnt ask for this to happen. There are many difficulties of having a clan, if you find them unbearable, then dont have a clan.

The best way to deal with bad clan members is a name and shame list. Or just sit at spawn and listen. You will hear about bad members. Granted it is never nice to have this happen, but it has, it does, and it will continue to.
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AthenaFox
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by AthenaFox »

The clan Duke that this happened to is my friend. Before this event they were happy and active. Afterwards, not so much.

Good people suffering at the hands of trolls is not a sustainable policy.
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Storms7
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by Storms7 »

Lestat wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:35 pm While you're at it tangled, how about trying to stop random clan attacks too ? Lol. Some parts of being in a clan are not and may not be pleasurable to all, but still can happen. This is the way it is.

Adding people you don't know to a clan and giving them lord is just asking for trouble.

Just curious, if a clan gets attacked and the building (s) seiged away, how is this any different. The duke didnt ask for this to happen. There are many difficulties of having a clan, if you find them unbearable, then dont have a clan.

The best way to deal with bad clan members is a name and shame list. Or just sit at spawn and listen. You will hear about bad members. Granted it is never nice to have this happen, but it has, it does, and it will continue to.
I couldn't have said it any better.
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TangledSwerve
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by TangledSwerve »

Lestat wrote: Sun Oct 27, 2019 2:35 pm While you're at it tangled, how about trying to stop random clan attacks too ? Lol. Some parts of being in a clan are not and may not be pleasurable to all, but still can happen. This is the way it is.

Adding people you don't know to a clan and giving them lord is just asking for trouble.

Just curious, if a clan gets attacked and the building (s) seiged away, how is this any different. The duke didnt ask for this to happen. There are many difficulties of having a clan, if you find them unbearable, then dont have a clan.

The best way to deal with bad clan members is a name and shame list. Or just sit at spawn and listen. You will hear about bad members. Granted it is never nice to have this happen, but it has, it does, and it will continue to.
I am not bundling in all clan based activity, this is deeply flawed mechanic open to abuse and frankly only encourage the absolute worst sort of play (And usually to the satisfaction of one extremely nasty player.) Being sieged is completely different and you know it, something that can take hours as opposed to mere seconds. There is no need to trivialise the point being made.
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SellSword
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Re: Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

Post by SellSword »

How about this:
Any player found to deliberately abuse clan mechanics, afforded to them by privilige of their rank will be subject to punishment. This includes actions that will affect all members such as mass member removal, mass building removal and theft.
Repeated abuse may lead to suspension from clan activity.



Such a proposal (or any proposal) would require a difficult determination of intent and permission.

If one clan member stores 10 magic trunks would there have to be an announcement to the entire clan they are "off limits" or not to be removed? What about clan members who weren't on for the announcement or joined later? What if a different clan member stored magic trunks for anyone to use and nobody knows they are using "off limits" items? What if the duke tells a high level crafter to use the "off limits" trunks anyhow to craft some +3 tools? Does clan rank provide any privilege in general to overrule things? What if a duke has given standing permission for use of shared items and a new member doesn't know that? Etc...

In general I'd say there is inherent difficulty in determining what is "deliberate" as opposed to not as that is a determination of intent.

In general I'd say there is also difficulty in determining between "use" and "abuse" as far as clan mechanics because the mechanics work the same for both. Probably goes back to intent.

You could make other arguments for the other points. Things such as member removal or selling seem more clear, but there are always scenarios that raise grey areas.

It all would come down to a messy investigation of the facts. Anything like that for a situation that could potentially come up multiple times would be overly burdensome.
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