Clan rules - Theft and deliberate building removal by Lord

[LostKnight]

The following is just an opinion ....

This is the way it is.
Is just sooooooo wrong!

Is FT the way it was when it first came out? This isn't the way it was.

Think about the no sharing rule! No one cared that they "might get axed" because it wasn't enforced.
- They though "This is the way it is" and shared like crazy.
- Then the axe fell, lots got jailed, permanently. So much for their "This is the way it is." attitude

Change comes about because people talk and try to make things better.
Some will like new changes, some won't.

Remember how spawn killing pets was allowed. This is the way it is we were told
Pets are your responsibility they said. Another This is the way it is.

Change happened ...
Spawn kill pets now and JAIL TIME! This is the way it is now. thanks to people pushing the point!
Pet are still your responsibility they will not be returned. This is the way it is now.

Maybe in a few years: Spawn kill pets and JAIL TIME! plus you loose all gear, contents of houses, and alts to pay for two new pets to replace the ones you killed. This could be the way it will be.

End of my thoughts on: This is the way it is.

Gotta leave things open to discussion and improvement.

[Storms7]

This thread is getting nowhere and it's very tired.

[TangledSwerve]

This thread is getting nowhere and it's very tired.

There is a sufficient number that do support a change or at least some review of existing rules/mechanics regarding this one shortcoming. Just because your opinion is in opposition to any such amendments, it does not mean this post is going nowhere.

You are more than welcome to participate elsewhere in the forum, if you feel your options for debate are now exhausted. It is, what it is.

[Storms7]

In reality, nothing will come of this and people keep saying the same things over and over again. The last 4 pages of posts are just players echoing the same thing over and over again with nothing new or valuable to add. But keep wasting your time If that is what you like to do.

And this is in the wrong section if we are making suggestions.

And just because your opinion is in opposition does not mean this thread is going anywhere.

[TangledSwerve]

How about this:
Any player found to deliberately abuse clan mechanics, afforded to them by privilige of their rank will be subject to punishment. This includes actions that will affect all members such as mass member removal, mass building removal and theft.
Repeated abuse may lead to suspension from clan activity.



Such a proposal (or any proposal) would require a difficult determination of intent and permission.

If one clan member stores 10 magic trunks would there have to be an announcement to the entire clan they are "off limits" or not to be removed? What about clan members who weren't on for the announcement or joined later? What if a different clan member stored magic trunks for anyone to use and nobody knows they are using "off limits" items? What if the duke tells a high level crafter to use the "off limits" trunks anyhow to craft some +3 tools? Does clan rank provide any privilege in general to overrule things? What if a duke has given standing permission for use of shared items and a new member doesn't know that? Etc...

In general I'd say there is inherent difficulty in determining what is "deliberate" as opposed to not as that is a determination of intent.

In general I'd say there is also difficulty in determining between "use" and "abuse" as far as clan mechanics because the mechanics work the same for both. Probably goes back to intent.

You could make other arguments for the other points. Things such as member removal or selling seem more clear, but there are always scenarios that raise grey areas.

It all would come down to a messy investigation of the facts. Anything like that for a situation that could potentially come up multiple times would be overly burdensome.

I've yet to see any rule that isn't open to interpretation, SellSword. You asked for a suggestion I gave one and condensed to make it as clear as possible. Theft in itself is a harder to determine, but deliberate and wholescale dismantling of a clan is not.

Reliance on a change of mechanics on it's own will never address this issue, especially given the limitations of an extremely overburdened development team. A simple rule will never fully address it either, however, doing nothing at about it, whatsoever, has and will only further cement a happy sanctuary for those who only seek to diminish the enjoyment of the game others.

So far the only defence I've seen against any amendment, aside from hysterical overreaction, is that it's always been this way. I am not trying to place training-wheels on clan warfare here, simply address spectacularly toxic game behavior via abuse of a game mechanism. There should be very little avenue to exercise it when it has such potential to have a far-reaching affect.

[TangledSwerve]

In reality, nothing will come of this and people keep saying the same things over and over again. The last 4 pages of posts are just players echoing the same thing over and over again with nothing new or valuable to add. But keep wasting your time If that is what you like to do.

In your opinion.

I've yet to see a truly valid argument to oppose what was being discussed. If you are tired of it, then walk away. You don't get to decide whether a thread has it's course, just because you disagree with the post and can't come up with anything beyond "accepting the way things are."

And this is in the wrong section if we are making suggestions.

Conversations have a habit of evolving. And kindly remain on topic please. If you wish to make a post in Suggestions concerning the nature by which this occurs and how to prevent it, please make one. I can't promise I'll contribute to it, tho.

And just because your opinion is in opposition does not mean this thread is going anywhere.

It seems to be on-going doesn't it? This old topic is alive again. You should know by now, progress is also achieved by not giving up when everyone has.

[Lestat]

Espionage and Treachery is a part of warfare, everywhere. This goes for Real Life and games.
So calling it a deliberate abuse of game mechanics is far from true.
We can debate this as long as you'd like, but it will result the same. It is Clan Warfare, whether you like it or not. Its is probably one of the worst forms of it, as you cant see it coming.
There is a reason for different levels of clan membership. If the said player was a marshall instead of lord, there would have been a probable chance of catching them stealing and therefore never being trusted with Lord.
Many clans have experienced some form of this, from removing missiles, to kicking of all players and selling ALL builds.
It is part of warfare, and to call it anything else is just trying to justify a players own mistakenly placed trust.

[Storms7]

In reality, nothing will come of this and people keep saying the same things over and over again. The last 4 pages of posts are just players echoing the same thing over and over again with nothing new or valuable to add. But keep wasting your time If that is what you like to do.

In your opinion.

I've yet to see a truly valid argument to oppose what was being discussed. If you are tired of it, then walk away. You don't get to decide whether a thread has it's course, just because you disagree with the post and can't come up with anything beyond "accepting the way things are."

And this is in the wrong section if we are making suggestions.

Conversations have a habit of evolving. And kindly remain on topic please. If you wish to make a post in Suggestions concerning the nature by which this occurs and how to prevent it, please make one. I can't promise I'll contribute to it, tho.

And just because your opinion is in opposition does not mean this thread is going anywhere.

It seems to be on-going doesn't it? This old topic is alive again. You should know by now, progress is also achieved by not giving up when everyone has.

Someone disagreed with TangledSwerve uh oh!

Let's make so many rules so that players have no freedom!

[madmaniacal1]

Hmm... We get what, 2 reports per year (if that) of a player infiltrating a clan and selling everything? 4 or 5 of a player robbing towers?
8 instances per year, maybe, and nothing was ever done. Why?
Because the offending player was granted access. Period.
Oppressive rule changes will not stop it, any more than it did scamming. Sure, they could get jailed. All they'll do is make another account and it's business as usual for them. These kinds of players don't quit doing it.
Want to prevent this from happening? Learn from it, and share the knowledge.

[TangledSwerve]

Someone disagreed with TangledSwerve uh oh!

Let's make so many rules so that players have no freedom!

Cue hysterical response from Ryaca. No one is talking about incorporating lots of rules. Just one.

Also I won't bow to your pathetic attempt to ridicule.