Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

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Gandalf
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Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by Gandalf » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:26 pm

due to recent posts of unsatisfied players, i want to start a thread, where you can post concrete suggestions about how to balance classes etc.

i know, that some of you, like rearrow, already did. please provide links then.

what is very important here (otherwise, it is pointless); do only post detailed ideas. like formulas, very well formulated ideas and so on. general complaints do not lead to a solution at all.


EDIT: i will delete all posts, that are not helpful. like one, that says "you should have asked much earlier" etc. -> no input, makes no sense. and surely, we have exact plans. but it is always a good option to ask players again, especially in such a heated situation. THANK YOU.
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by Asmodeous » Sat Jul 25, 2015 9:31 pm

Heres a copy and paste of a post of mine. Saves linking.

Tossed around an idea. Archer speed mimicing the same as spells per second. 1 Dex negating 2.5 mana damage. Yellow flow then doing 2.5 mana damage up from 1.5

Strength doing 2.5x damage. Ogre skill then being 1.75x damage to account for 2.5x str damage. Arm negating 2x str damage.

All attack speeds boosted to mages spells per second.

Archer hp increased by 25%
Ogre hp increased by 50%
Sword hp increased by 25%
Dwarf HP up 40%

Archer doublespeed independant skill. 1.5x duration. -50% cooldown on that.

Freeze arrow applying freeze per arrow shot. Along with slowing affect. Archers % of dex should count towards damage due to "well placed shots". Give 1 speed increase. Mod fire arrows cooldown by -15%.

Ogres stunning skill doing the usual 25% current HP damage. 50% mana drain. Up from i think 30%. Make ogres double damage skill which would be now 1.75x independant to account for the fact they are tanks.

Twister up 2% from what it usually is now.

Swords skill remaining the same except lvl 30 skill. Make it ignore 70% of arm value instead of 100%. Except that last one that i dont think anyone has any idea of. Make it vampiric and independant. Except being used with 1st lvl 30 skill.

Dwarf. Someone intervene on dwarfs. I got nothing on skills. Its the only class i dont play.

-----
I think something that would go a long way is one independant skill. For archers having doubleshot as that skill would work.

Dwarfs maybe spellshield or beserk?

Ogres, twister.

Mages. Sorry bros got nothing for you there except flat numbering all the skills so they function like heal. Or variabling all of them.

Swordsman, the suggested modified lvl 30 skill. Im sorry that i cant give exact formulas. Also just got home from work. Ill post later on stat ideas and what not.
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by dinoponte2 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 10:43 pm

My opinion would be just reduce damage spells a bit and make arm spells only works with pvm
Last thing would be replace 1 lvl punishment for each reset stats because been checking and his mages abusing it

Just do this and will be fine i guess

Even for they never cry create unslow potion and thats all
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by HAMMER » Sat Jul 25, 2015 11:09 pm

Stay on topic, what we need to be working on is buffing other classes and not nerfing mage, but maybe mage has to change I don't know I can't test, then maybe a solution could be a beta portal or something
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rearrow
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by rearrow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:12 am

for reference. not concrete suggestions but a list of imbalances

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=7458
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by Tnickel » Sun Jul 26, 2015 1:42 am

The biggest problem with PvP is current the formula used in order to determine the amount of damaged done by a classes. 1 str is equal to 1 damage and 1 mana is equal to 1.25 damage per point. While this is a small number when dealing with low stat but plug numbers in 1,000 str is 1,000 damage per .6 second with speed of level 7 and 1,000 mana is 0 to 1,250 say 3 clicks a second some mages can do more that is 3,750 damage per second compare to the archer at roughly 1,600 damage per second. The mage doubles the amount of damage done at level 1,000.

My suggestion the formulas need to be readjust yes I believe so, however nerfing a class is moral bad for the game I'm sure all will agree. What I suggest may be a little crazy but here it is. (Will explain stat formula in end)

Mages - I'd suggest leave everything alone as they seem to be able to handle themselves. With the exception to prevent spamming Slow (I'm guilty of this in PvP against high levels often forgot when fighting a decent fight) is putting a 5 second cool down or whatever.

Archers - First there skills should be individually set but only allow one active at a time. Also the freeze spell should freeze upon every successful hit.

Warrior - This class is pretty well balanced I would say other then what most melee class complain about the targeting system needs to be set to an auto function. I would also do a individual skill set with each of the melee classes with only allow one skill active at a time then the cool down after wards like normal.

Dwarf - The dwarf overall is great at PvM and can out level almost any class currently. However on the PvP side of things the only skill worth anything is the speed +2, and sometimes the mana shield if mage not too high level. With that being said I think mana shield is an awesome skill with a little bit of a bite say 50% mana blocked, and 2% redirected back at the mage, or maybe not redirected but causes the mage to be stunned in place for 5 seconds.

The Tank AKA Ogre - The ogre is not a class I have played much so warning I have a few ideals but may not be perfect. The ogre is designed to take a beating on the battlefield, he's the one who likes to get up close and dish it out. I think their skills are fairly decent especially the stun skill taking 50% of the mana away but fighting a high level mage is that really going to do anything if he regenerating 200 to 300 mana every 5 second. What you say we modify this not sure how hard it would be but upon a successful stun hit it takes 50% mana and causes regen to stop for 10 to 20sec.

Now for the stats, the biggest thing I see here is you have a Mage their main stat are Mana, and Arm simple easy to follow. The rest of the classes have to worry about Str, Arm, and Dex. What if we kept the stat formula as they are but added a .25 to damage onto Arm, and/or Dex this would bring the damage field to almost even out as the other following class for what the mage could do in extra damage by clicking the other classes have nearly x4 the health of most mages.
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by Asmodeous » Sun Jul 26, 2015 2:53 am

The reason for that is because i think mages are about attavk speed 11 or attack speed 13. If we converted spells-per-sec into attack speed (blitz, chime in bro. Cant remember the exact number)

Str and Arm are related stats.
-their a 1 for 1 so their even in the sense 1 point of str/arm cancels out 1 point of arm/str.

Mana and dex are related stats.
-as T said. 1 mana gives an additional .25 damage. Where as 1 dex still negates only 1 mana damage.

Nerfing it would be pretty bad. Which is why it was suggested to bump attack speeds of all other classes to the equivilent of mages spells per sec. Then change str to mimic mana damage... either 1.25x or remove the 50% thing with mages spells and set them both at 2.5x.

It also means that the 0x to 1x variation where you can hit anywhere between 0 damage and 1.25x needs to be flat numbers like heal and yellow flow needs to match.
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by blitzcraig » Sun Jul 26, 2015 3:19 am

making numbers match is the easiest and most accurate way to Balance for sure... however, after talking with everybody I have, I fear it's not the most fun ;) - what I think is the perfect goal is continuing to allow mages the initial "power dump" but toning it down a bit at high levels so the target had a chance at survival, while really focusing on boosting everybody else.. here's a portion of a "non-public" post... let's see what happens with this lol. I do ask a couple things:
1> please read with an open mind
2> when you read something you don't like, ask why I think it's a good idea and explain your concerns rather than just saying "this sucks, you're gonna ruin the game" ... there are reasons for everything here
3> realize this is only the balance portion of the main post on purpose... let's please stay on topic. thank you :)



I guess it's time to refresh this topic. some old ideas are outdated due to changes which have already been made. I'll break it into five sections

highest priority in gold

high priority in red

BALANCE
tons here, will add later

B1>
to be honest, I think we need to look at the core formulae here... My guess is balance is close to changing green flow to 50 + max_mana (including gear to help low level mages and give some value to mage gear) x 1.5, then also increasing damage of all other characters to str (including gear) x 1.5 + natural_dex x 0.5 - like I said, this is a rough guess based on on some quick numbers... if the general premise is accepted, I'm happy to run detailed tests to give as good a starting point as possible for real game testing.

B2> I love the thought of making mage spells simpler to cast (I. e. cast at max rate while holding button or toggle on/off or similar) - - it would make balance a lot easier... however, many (most) of the players I've talked with think this would make it less fun to play.. so maybe it's a bad idea :/

B3
> pvm is still off also (strongly favoring mages) I think two options here would help a lot B3A> flow damage is reduced by monster dex (max 80%) or B3B> introduce a "magic resistance" stat to monsters - - either way could work... the second is better imo, but more work to implement - - bottom line is that there needs to be a limiting factor for mages in pvm

B4>
the armor spell needs reworked imo.. maybe a max of 3 active at any given time or similar? or increase it, but then simply the effect of multiple casts does not stack?

B5>
speed pots need to be available to all classes since all are the same speed now, and it should cancel slow spell and make you resistant to slow for maybe 5 seconds. Additionally, I think it's worth considering combining unfreeze and speed into 1 pot so you needn't carry both.

B6>
Ogres desperately need a good skill to help them stand out - I suggest making their second skill a regeneration skill - while active, you regen at normal rate while under attack, or double rate while standing still alone

B7>
speaking of Ogres, twister skill is virtually worthless as it is - - I'd say make it 2% damage to every attack (from all attackers, not 1 at a time) and whether they hit or not - - another option is simply increasing the damage

B8> fill in 4 (or 5) skills to all classes

B9>
change skill mechanic - you can activate skill #1. when it's done, it goes into recharge exactly like it does now, but you can immediately activate one of the other skills - - this would help with balance and also make it more fun

B10> Mage gear should provide less armor and str

B11> archers should be able to choose target (as should others actually...care must be taken to not overpower % damage attacks though)

B12>
change range of all melee attacks from 1 to 2... it looks fine (we tested) and makes it much, much more fun to play, and more fair. Also, it's super easy to implement

B13> give melee auto follow when attacking a fleeing foe. it's a lot to code I'm sure, but would be awesome
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by Gesus » Sun Jul 26, 2015 4:29 am

blitzcraig wrote:making numbers match is the easiest and most accurate way to Balance for sure... however, after talking with everybody I have, I fear it's not the most fun ;) - what I think is the perfect goal is continuing to allow mages the initial "power dump" but toning it down a bit at high levels so the target had a chance at survival, while really focusing on boosting everybody else.. here's a portion of a "non-public" post... let's see what happens with this lol. I do ask a couple things:
1> please read with an open mind
2> when you read something you don't like, ask why I think it's a good idea and explain your concerns rather than just saying "this sucks, you're gonna ruin the game" ... there are reasons for everything here
3> realize this is only the balance portion of the main post on purpose... let's please stay on topic. thank you :)



I guess it's time to refresh this topic. some old ideas are outdated due to changes which have already been made. I'll break it into five sections

highest priority in gold

high priority in red

BALANCE
tons here, will add later

B1>
to be honest, I think we need to look at the core formulae here... My guess is balance is close to changing green flow to 50 + max_mana (including gear to help low level mages and give some value to mage gear) x 1.5, then also increasing damage of all other characters to str (including gear) x 1.5 + natural_dex x 0.5 - like I said, this is a rough guess based on on some quick numbers... if the general premise is accepted, I'm happy to run detailed tests to give as good a starting point as possible for real game testing.

B2> I love the thought of making mage spells simpler to cast (I. e. cast at max rate while holding button or toggle on/off or similar) - - it would make balance a lot easier... however, many (most) of the players I've talked with think this would make it less fun to play.. so maybe it's a bad idea :/

B3
> pvm is still off also (strongly favoring mages) I think two options here would help a lot B3A> flow damage is reduced by monster dex (max 80%) or B3B> introduce a "magic resistance" stat to monsters - - either way could work... the second is better imo, but more work to implement - - bottom line is that there needs to be a limiting factor for mages in pvm

B4>
the armor spell needs reworked imo.. maybe a max of 3 active at any given time or similar? or increase it, but then simply the effect of multiple casts does not stack?

B5>
speed pots need to be available to all classes since all are the same speed now, and it should cancel slow spell and make you resistant to slow for maybe 5 seconds. Additionally, I think it's worth considering combining unfreeze and speed into 1 pot so you needn't carry both.

B6>
Ogres desperately need a good skill to help them stand out - I suggest making their second skill a regeneration skill - while active, you regen at normal rate while under attack, or double rate while standing still alone

B7>
speaking of Ogres, twister skill is virtually worthless as it is - - I'd say make it 2% damage to every attack (from all attackers, not 1 at a time) and whether they hit or not - - another option is simply increasing the damage

B8> fill in 4 (or 5) skills to all classes

B9>
change skill mechanic - you can activate skill #1. when it's done, it goes into recharge exactly like it does now, but you can immediately activate one of the other skills - - this would help with balance and also make it more fun

B10> Mage gear should provide less armor and str

B11> archers should be able to choose target (as should others actually...care must be taken to not overpower % damage attacks though)

B12>
change range of all melee attacks from 1 to 2... it looks fine (we tested) and makes it much, much more fun to play, and more fair. Also, it's super easy to implement

B13> give melee auto follow when attacking a fleeing foe. it's a lot to code I'm sure, but would be awesome
I do agree with most of this. B3 a little off say me and cleo (worf) and i go grind. Even tho i am 1k lvls higher. She would still get about the same exp as me

(SKILLS) B9. aslo a very good idea. And would like to see this in game.

Dwarfs i think should have a skill ( +30%) damage to 1 mob at a time. This would help them more in pvp. And make them more useful in pvp/clan

Also the speed pots B5 if all classes are same speed really there is no need for speed pots anymore. But then again i agree that they should counter a mages slow spell.

Or say a mage slow spells someone what if the mage that casted slow spell walked half the speed of the person they slowed. ( durning pvp only)
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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Post by rearrow » Sun Jul 26, 2015 5:40 am

I think it would be fair if mages still had the potential to do a little more dmg than others as similar levels.
this because the mage player needs tobash the button constantly and is extra influenced by lag if missing these buttons.

some ideas:

but to do this extra dmg should take skill. maybe having to so a certain combo.

and at high lvls, approx mean 700+ the dmg increaseshould decline rapidly. the higher the lvl the less extra dmg is added with each manna point.

or maybe a max on dmg based independent of lvl.
this max dmg could be wand dependent. the want would only be able to channel a certain max of energy.

high lvl equipment with specif magical protection could also help.

beaR in mind i dont play magesmuch so i can only talk from a 'victim' poibt of view.
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