Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

[DAVEmanda]

An alternative is to enable green flow to be area effect (as now) or direct attack (by targeting a player or monster).

That way it ignores all sieges and human shields.

Yes but this doesn't happen only in the mage. Other classes too

I don't think any class should be forced into this.
If you're not clanned (and especially if you have no interest in clan business, as in my case), why would you even be bothered by a siege weapon? It poses no threat to you at all. Might as well be forced to hit the rabbits too. --- Actually, those rabbits annoy the &%#@*! out of me at times, I'd rather enjoy that....

Agree)

[Arashiko]

Might as well be forced to hit the rabbits too.
--- Actually, those rabbits annoy the &%#@*! out of me at times, I'd rather enjoy that....

Agree)

(Creates Archer account ElmerFudd)

[blitzcraig]

An alternative is to enable green flow to be area effect (as now) or direct attack (by targeting a player or monster).

That way it ignores all sieges and human shields.

Which brings up another peculiarity - mage (like archer) can target a specific monster to attack... but then yellow flow still doesn't attack the one targeted, only the physical attack does - not a huge deal most of the time, but would be nice to have fixed

[rearrow]

One thing that isnt mentioned here is that after a certain lvl mages can be lvled much, much faster then other classes. just because they can not only attack/do dmg more often but also do this to lots of monsters at once.
10-15minutes for a lvl is not unknown for a mage close to lvl 2k while while other classes would take like 45minutes at the same place.
faster lvling means getting stronger faster which is a big benefit in pvp where lvl difference means much more then skill or skills..
pvp skill wise i think classes are currently reasonably balanced (except for dwarf) but the fast lvling of a mage makes him still OP because he can get stronger much easier then other classes.

note: at low lvl mages are slower to lvl up, but that can be solved with quests or $$$. when this low lvl first, faster later mechanism was introduced it took many months or a year to get to lvl 150ish.

I disagree here. Other classes near of 2k take 30mins how max. Mage/dwarf can take 15min . And remember that for lvl up a mage you need to touch the screen so in a week you can lvl up a lot but maybe you need a new finger.

And with the actual system you can get 150lvl in a month only buying pets. I have did lvl 60 in one day for some of my Crocs. It even wasn't a day (24h) it was (10h) or less

lol. i disagree.
most xp is based on killing monsters.
say you have 3k attributes to distribute
say that gear dex takes care of always hitting for non mages.
say that weaponspeed is 7.
say that str supplied by gear is 2k.


non mage:
fir max dmg all 3k attributes go to str (unwise but its max dmg)
dmg/hit =3k+2k = 5k every 0.7sec = 50k in 7sec.

mage using green flow:
for max dmg all go to manna
dmg/hit = 50+(2.5*3k)=7550 every hit.
so even if hes real slow with tapping his finger at 1tab a second he already does more dmg then a non mage.
but if he tabs at max speed (7per sec) he does 49*7550=369.9k dmg in the same time a non mage can do 50k dmg.

pets of a mage are the same as for a non mage, both do similar dmg. but even here the mage has the advantage bevause he can get the next better pet faster by lvling faster.

lvling mage fasts takes a lot of effort but it can be done.
lvling a magevat the same speed as a non mage only takes a tab per second.
lvling others as fast cannot be done.
therefore mages got a big advantage in a game where lvl rules.

[MadMikael]

Eh, I'd say the above math is flawed, and doesn't consider everything.
Like
Spell effects (during PvP, magical DMG and HP increase are reduced by 50%!)
---
and
---
Your maximum hitpoints (no damage received) are calculated with these formulas:

Level 0-100: MAX_HP = Base HP + (LEVEL^1.3)*[5+(ARM*0.5)+(STR*0.2)]

Level 101 and over: Base HP + 100^1.3*[5+(ARM*.5)+(STR*.2)]+(LEVEL-100)*(Bonus) where Bonus value is: +100HP (Ogre), +90HP (Dwarf), +80HP (Swordsman), +50HP (Archer), +20 (Mage).

LEVEL is the actual level of the character.

The attributes ARM and STR are calculated WITHOUT GEAR!
---
when you factor in the idea that the mage will have very little hp, their spells are halved from the above math, their non-mage opponents have much more hp, and add spell resistance.... and then add sieges....

you guys can run the numbers

[rearrow]

Eh, I'd say the above math is flawed, and doesn't consider everything.
Like
Spell effects (during PvP, magical DMG and HP increase are reduced by 50%!)
---
and
---
Your maximum hitpoints (no damage received) are calculated with these formulas:

Level 0-100: MAX_HP = Base HP + (LEVEL^1.3)*[5+(ARM*0.5)+(STR*0.2)]

Level 101 and over: Base HP + 100^1.3*[5+(ARM*.5)+(STR*.2)]+(LEVEL-100)*(Bonus) where Bonus value is: +100HP (Ogre), +90HP (Dwarf), +80HP (Swordsman), +50HP (Archer), +20 (Mage).

LEVEL is the actual level of the character.

The attributes ARM and STR are calculated WITHOUT GEAR!
---
when you factor in the idea that the mage will have very little hp, their spells are halved from the above math, their non-mage opponents have much more hp, and add spell resistance.... and then add sieges....

you guys can run the numbers

yes. thats why i say that for pvp classes are reasonably balanced. much better then before.

BUT my point is that in non pvp (pvm) mages can potentially level 7times faster then other classes.
unclanning or buying pvp protection for a few days can help them lvl up much faster then other classes, after which they clan up again and are much higher lvl then before.
at pvm the lesser hp doesnt matter much since the mage can heal himself by tapping on heal once or twice a second.

everything in the balance discussion is about pvp. but there is a lot of pvm as well. and if you clan you cannot escape it.
if a non mage and a mage fight and are evenly matched, then both grind for a week and try again the mage will be a lot stronger then the non mage.

at a real high lvl differences become smaller again and non mages may be stronger because one double dmg blow or shot might kill a monster in one and in pvp only a few might kill the mage with his low hp.

my2 points are: is
1) You cannot look at pvp alone. rate of lvling in pvm determines how fast you go stronger.
2) the formulas were designed at a time when lv 250was high. now with lots of 2k to 11k+ they may have some unintended effects.

[Mr_Maks]

If the mages leveling so fast then why not yet there is not one 10k mage who raised this level without investing funds.The only one who is close to this is Kipers but he has been playing for more than 5 years and has a 7700+ level his mage.While he plays every day for 8+ hours.
If you think that this is faster 7 times than for other classes, then this is your right and I can not convince you but in fact everything is completely wrong and before declaring this you yourself would not hurt to try to level your mage.

The mage is the only original class and is the key to the destruction of clan buildings.
Because if the mage does not hit the building but the buildings hit 20 sieges it can be cured by a team of 6 people 3 builders and 3 resource producers what is not fair.
This is the very essence of the inactive clans of their base are still standing because they can heal buildings with 2-3 active players playing on 3 accounts at the same time.

But if the mage had the opportunity to attack,builders who were not active clans could not manage to heal their clan buildings because the mage is the only one who can damage the square tower with huge damage and 90% magic resist.And if the remaining players do not connect to the rescue base, their clan will be destroyed.

Clan bases should be defended from the fact that builders should be as many as they attack, otherwise it makes no sense and stagnant inactive clans will stand still for a long time.

We have a team that could try to attack someone else's clan base, but we have different time zones and, in general, work and real life.Give some precise suggestions as to how best to change it is not possible.But as soon as everything will turn out so right away.

But just as buildings cease to cope with the onslaught of high-level mages.And builders on an equal footing like those who attack them and can not manage to heal the buildings, they will also have to change something in the opposite direction.For example, remove the limit of 2850 lvl buildings and make it higher, but it's too early to talk about it.

This is only a theory.Real facts will be attached as soon as it is possible.

[rearrow]

mrMaks
for your info. i have lvled several mages for a total of around 2k, a third of that without the use of any pets. and monsters gave a lot less xp back then. i know what i am talking about.
however my love has always been archers in any game i play and i dont have the time to lvl several.
why there arent 10k mages without buying?
maybe because most just buy lvls because its easier and they are mostly interested in pvp so they dont spend that much time grinding.
although i beleave a lot (most) mages do grind a lot and get most of their lvls from grinding, not from buying.
Why spend $ if you can get the same amount of lvls in a few hours grindiing.

white might be the second highest lvl in game but almost half of these lvls are bought. and as i said after a certain lvl the difference becomes small because the non mage you can kill the top monsterin one hit while the mage cannot spawn these en masse because of his lower hp.

the rest of your post is about pvp or rather destroying towers and i agree mages are important here.
not only in attacking the towers, but also in killing the defenders.
although wev taken down some high lvl towers without them, with a mage its a lot faster.
the inactive clan discussion is another topic but if a clan can muster 3defenders when being attacked i wont call it inactive.

however the title of this topic is'... balance the classes', it is not 'balance the classes for pvp'
my contribution to this is about pvm, not pvp which i hardly ever do. (i feel bad if someone drops and give it back usually).
And you cant argue with the math of the formulas used.
a mage is much faster to lvl after a certain lvl if he uses green flow.
in pvm green flow spell is OP.

[blitzcraig]

rearrow is correct here... and it's exactly why we all had the conversation years ago about monsters needing some type of limiting factor against damage from mages... here's a post from July 26, 1015 -


making numbers match is the easiest and most accurate way to Balance for sure... however, after talking with everybody I have, I fear it's not the most fun - what I think is the perfect goal is continuing to allow mages the initial "power dump" but toning it down a bit at high levels so the target had a chance at survival, while really focusing on boosting everybody else.. here's a portion of a "non-public" post... let's see what happens with this lol. I do ask a couple things:
1> please read with an open mind
2> when you read something you don't like, ask why I think it's a good idea and explain your concerns rather than just saying "this sucks, you're gonna ruin the game" ... there are reasons for everything here
3> realize this is only the balance portion of the main post on purpose... let's please stay on topic. thank you



I guess it's time to refresh this topic. some old ideas are outdated due to changes which have already been made. I'll break it into five sections

highest priority in gold
high priority in red

BALANCE
tons here, will add later

B1> to be honest, I think we need to look at the core formulae here... My guess is balance is close to changing green flow to 50 + max_mana (including gear to help low level mages and give some value to mage gear) x 1.5, then also increasing damage of all other characters to str (including gear) x 1.5 + natural_dex x 0.5 - like I said, this is a rough guess based on on some quick numbers... if the general premise is accepted, I'm happy to run detailed tests to give as good a starting point as possible for real game testing.

B2> I love the thought of making mage spells simpler to cast (I. e. cast at max rate while holding button or toggle on/off or similar) - - it would make balance a lot easier... however, many (most) of the players I've talked with think this would make it less fun to play.. so maybe it's a bad idea :/

B3> pvm is still off also (strongly favoring mages) I think two options here would help a lot B3A> flow damage is reduced by monster dex (max 80%) or B3B> introduce a "magic resistance" stat to monsters - - either way could work... the second is better imo, but more work to implement - - bottom line is that there needs to be a limiting factor for mages in pvm

B4> the armor spell needs reworked imo.. maybe a max of 3 active at any given time or similar? or increase it, but then simply the effect of multiple casts does not stack?

B5> speed pots need to be available to all classes since all are the same speed now, and it should cancel slow spell and make you resistant to slow for maybe 5 seconds. Additionally, I think it's worth considering combining unfreeze and speed into 1 pot so you needn't carry both.

B6> Ogres desperately need a good skill to help them stand out - I suggest making their second skill a regeneration skill - while active, you regen at normal rate while under attack, or double rate while standing still alone

B7> speaking of Ogres, twister skill is virtually worthless as it is - - I'd say make it 2% damage to every attack (from all attackers, not 1 at a time) and whether they hit or not - - another option is simply increasing the damage

B8> fill in 4 (or 5) skills to all classes

B9> change skill mechanic - you can activate skill #1. when it's done, it goes into recharge exactly like it does now, but you can immediately activate one of the other skills - - this would help with balance and also make it more fun

B10> Mage gear should provide less armor and str

B11> archers should be able to choose target (as should others actually...care must be taken to not overpower % damage attacks though)

B12> change range of all melee attacks from 1 to 2... it looks fine (we tested) and makes it much, much more fun to play, and more fair. Also, it's super easy to implement

B13> give melee auto follow when attacking a fleeing foe. it's a lot to code I'm sure, but would be awesome

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It's fun to go back and read these older posts and see how much the game has grown lol. so many of the old issues have been fixed - but not all of them

at any rate, the magic resistance has obviously been implemented now, so I think the next step is to go through the entire enemy list and assign them some magic resistance (well, not ALL of them, some would certainly remain 0%) anyway, my hope is that this will happen at some point soon, but it's hard to even guess when there's SO MUCH happening right now already

[MadMikael]

The saddest part is, I'm aware of some discussions that I'm not allowed to discuss.
While the topics of discussion were not about class balance, I guarantee they will have a large impact on the above arguments, if implemented, and possibly render some of them completely incorrect.
I hope that my post here will be noticed by my superiors, and they will consider the above arguments.