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Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:33 pm
by rearrow
posting this link to illustrate the power if a lv3000+ mage.
its not only about unbalance in class it unbalances clans

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:44 pm
by rearrow
copied this from another post om mine. I think its highly relevant and some questions im asking havenot been covered here yet.

maybe mods could merge it in here with the answers provided to some of my remarks.
Mods please feel free to change this post to incorporate answwrs given by GM to some of these questions already.


With the recent controversy resulting from a minor update of smaller towers, I think it only fair if some details of the coming ‘balancing update’ in September are released.
This update will surely change many aspects of the game and some will like it and some will not.
Releasing some more details will help players to decide if they are willing to spend more time and money on ft during the wait.
Underneath I will mention the biggest unbalancing factors in ft at the moment.
For each I would like to know if a fix is included in the coming update. no real details necessary but a general outline of solution would be great.

After update do all classes have approximately the same chance to win in a one on one fight against another class of the same lvl? At all lvls?
Specifically is the problem of high lvl mages being able to kill other classes with tw=ice as high lvl solved? This includes their high dmg per second at high lvls and their attack speed which is many times higher than other classes. also includes use of slow skill.
Are skills made useless or less useful by previous updates (freeze) replaced by others.
Is melee problem of unable to hit others if they move fixed? (glue on targeting).
Can archer finally choose his target instead of keeping shooting random or lowest hp monsters when attacked

Do all classes now get multi target attacks and approximate same dmg at similar lvls so farming is not more profitable for one class then for others?

At the moment only mages can kill towers because of their high dmg and heal.
After the update it should be one of the following:
-no one can kill towers with alt. you need a stronger siege or something.
-all can kill towers. ie high dmg and some type of heal for all classes.

Any effort or time spend on building or grinding is made instantly useless if another person can log, buy 1000+ lvls and kill u the next minute. You may build 4 months 8 hrs a day. then some enemy gets tax back, buys 2000 lvls and instantly destroys your 4 months work.
Already several high lvls are planning to buy 1k to 2k new lvs , making the imbalance bigger.
I can see several solutions here:
a) upper limit at lvl. You cant get higher then lvl xxxx, say 4000. (im sure isoril would actually agree to be reduced in lvl if this was done).
b) max lvl purchased per month. for instance only 100-200 lvls max bought per month. this lets grinders at least keep up for 50% if they spend a lot of time grinding.
c) limit effect of lvls in pvp and tower destroying.
For instance a lv 2000 can only attack lv 1500 or higher. not someone 1000 lvls lower.
or dmg is maximized at a certain percentage of players hp, like firearrows %.
there are surely other solutions as well.

First im going to state that what i say here describes thing which Im sure are unintentional on GMs part. But they are a fact which imbalances ft by favoring and encouraging players who break the rules. They promote bullying and ignoring or laughing at gm.

There are many rules but they are not enforced. If you don’t enforce them, allow it.
In other games trading or even offering accounts is instant block of account. Here its allowed in practice and not acted upon.
Items are still offered for lvls and blackmail for lvls is still going on. Unless gm wants to check logs on a daily basis, the only way to stop it is making lvl buying needing the password. if you want to give somenone else lvls, get their bank account or their password.
People are jailed by one mod and then released by another mod.
Problems and bugs created by updates are exploited by some. GM does not always rectify the resulting advantages.
Some are allowed to interfere with GM helping other clans. Killing a player working with an admin to rectify bugs and preventing him to come back was not punished because there ‘was no warning first’. Either punish (JAIL) or make clan non pvp when admin/mod rectifying problems.
GM does not seem to understand how fixes repairing problems affect clan balance.
Mods and admins should spend some time in clans. preferably warring ones, just to see how this works. Im sure both raw and rash or godz would be willing to have a gm account in them which gm could use regularly for this.

Hard to fix but parties and resulting rare drops favor certain time zones. An effort should be made to have parties at different time. a schedule could be made/planned.
If you have a bad or lower speed connection u loose if u play a mage.
If you have bad/slow connection or slower device you get worse lag. Other high end graphical mmorpgs dont have this problem. even 3 D ones are smoother.
If you have a small screen you can only target a player if he is close and already in attack range. If you have a large tablet or play on pc you can target a player when he is at other end of the map. a mage can run in and kill without the other even seeing him. targeting should only be possible in attack range in my opinion.

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 3:44 am
by LordSeth
Asmodeous wrote:The reason for that is because i think mages are about attavk speed 11 or attack speed 13. If we converted spells-per-sec into attack speed (blitz, chime in bro. Cant remember the exact number)

Str and Arm are related stats.
-their a 1 for 1 so their even in the sense 1 point of str/arm cancels out 1 point of arm/str.

Mana and dex are related stats.
-as T said. 1 mana gives an additional .25 damage. Where as 1 dex still negates only 1 mana damage.

Nerfing it would be pretty bad. Which is why it was suggested to bump attack speeds of all other classes to the equivilent of mages spells per sec. Then change str to mimic mana damage... either 1.25x or remove the 50% thing with mages spells and set them both at 2.5x.

It also means that the 0x to 1x variation where you can hit anywhere between 0 damage and 1.25x needs to be flat numbers like heal and yellow flow needs to match.
Imo even though it would make a lot of people angry everyone can also admit its mages that is the main throw off on all pvp balance. Even my mage at lvl 687 was eating up crazy when he was lvl 1100 the benefit for me was he is an archer and I was set for archer pvp indeed I ran out of mana once before I forced him to log twice before I killed him but the fact that a mage can cast a spell as fast as a player can tap a screen and as been posted all other classes has 1 set attack speed. The skills need the new formula's but the spells honestly need a .7 second cooldown or better. That will make a big difference. Atleast in pvp.

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:34 am
by Asmodeous
No ones hit the 6 per sec taps as it is. Apparently people say they do. But logs apparently say they havent. Why not buff everyone elses attack speed to be the equivilent of that? Which i think is when we did calculations either attack speed 11 or 13. The attack would be constant while the mages finger might tire.

Making it one for one would probably kill the versatility of the class. Stat points never matched up properly anyway. At least as far as mana and dex goes. Its never been 1 dex negating the damage 1 mana point can do. We also have varying damage which means we can hit 0's.

The reason for bumping up the attack speed of everyone else and making some of their skills independant is to make them more versatile in how they fight. Along with matching up the dex/mana negations and adding str being 2.5x damage to match.

Also making the arm spell be maybe a few applications tops. Instead of getting 5k arm and lolling. If independant skills could be offered along with attack speed increases. Varied damage and healing against flat damage and skills is a hard fight. Especially if built to fight a mage.

Doubleshot and flame arrow for instance under this system could offer a lot of pain. As could double damage and ogres stun skill (not fish) or the dwarfs spellshield and tweaking something like beserk to offer increased output (dwarfs kinda need help)

Or the swords auto hit and flame.

A lot of variation could be offered with how people play. Including skill reliant characters who load up on dex. Or monsters of a swordsman/ogre who have minimal dex. It may even force a mage to start using dex which then lowers his dps.

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 4:58 am
by LordSeth
Very true and well thought through. Thereare mmany ways to help ballance out the pvp. Like even if a swordsman/ogre/dwarf/archer attack speed depended on how fast they could tap the attack icon like our mages spells. And instead of mana the mele and archer etc classes have stamina. Our skills can be formulated as been posted but still require the cool down. When we run out of stamina our attack speed goes to the normal speed that is set now.

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 5:22 am
by blitzcraig
for what it's worth, I'm still looking for player input on these ideas (have gotten very little ;) )

B1> to be honest, I think we need to look at the core formulae here... My guess is balance is close to changing green flow to 50 + max_mana (including gear to help low level mages and give some value to mage gear) x 1.3, (heal = 1/3 this number, reduce mana cost from 5 to 3)... minus opponnent_dex (max reduction of 50%)... also automatically give all mages the full 50% resistance (dex wouldn't matter)

then also increasing damage of all other characters to natural_str (not including gear) x 1.5 + natural_dex x 0.5 + str_from_gear - - I've run some numbers on these (slightly adjusted recently) formulas from level 50-5,000 and they look very promising to me... obviously there are way too many variables to fully test on paper... oh, and I should mention I tested with mage completing 5 casts per second

B2> I love the thought of making mage spells simpler to cast (I. e. cast at max rate while holding button or toggle on/off or similar) - - it would make balance a lot easier, and also end any auto-clicking abuse (and fear of it) ... however, many (most) of the players I've talked with think this would make it less fun to play.. so maybe it's a bad idea?

> pvm is still off also (strongly favoring mages) I think two options here would help a lot B3A> flow damage is reduced by monster dex (max 80%) or B3B> introduce a "magic resistance" stat to monsters - - either way could work... the second is better imo, but more work to implement - - bottom line is that there needs to be a limiting factor for mages in pvp (keep in mind, if B1 is implemented in some way, that would serve already to help here also)

the armor spell needs reworked imo.. maybe a max of 3 active at any given time or similar? or increase it, but then simply the effect of multiple casts does not stack?

speed pots need to be available to all classes since all are the same speed now, and it should cancel slow spell and make you resistant to slow for maybe 5 seconds. Additionally, I think it's worth considering combining unfreeze and speed into 1 pot so you needn't carry both.

Ogres desperately need a good skill to help them stand out - I suggest making their second skill a regeneration skill - while active, you regen at normal rate while under attack, or double rate while standing still alone

speaking of Ogres, twister skill is virtually worthless as it is - - I'd say make it 2% damage to every attack (from all attackers, not 1 at a time) and whether they hit or not - - another option is simply increasing the damage

B8> fill in 4 (or 5) skills to all classes

change skill mechanic - you can activate skill #1. when it's done, it goes into recharge exactly like it does now, but you can immediately activate one of the other skills - - this would help with balance and also make it more fun

B10> Mage gear should provide less armor and str

B11> archers should be able to choose target (as should others must be taken to not overpower % damage attacks though)

change range of all melee attacks from 1 to 2... it looks fine (we tested) and makes it much, much more fun to play, and more fair. Also, it's super easy to implement

B13> give melee auto follow when attacking a fleeing foe. it's a lot to code I'm sure, but would be awesome

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 6:04 am
by Joe
1. Ogres 3 skill is good u just need to put 4% each hit.
2. Healing skill can be good but i wouldn't change ogres second skill(i use it a lot to kill mages), very good skill.

I say this as player who is playing ogre almost 2 years and know how to use skills wisely. I have to say blitz that i don't agree on 3rd ogre skill but i think i have more xp playing than u.

You definitely have more time as ogre than I do, and I'm happy to get your input, thank you ;) 3rd skill, I agree... double it and it could be very helpful. as for healing skill, I would not want to replace the stun skill, just moving it... I was thinking making the healing/regenerate the 2nd skill, stun 3rd, and reflect damage 4th skill... thoughts? anyway, thx again for input :) - Blitz

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:00 am
by LordSeth
Like I posted above I do agree with the formula change on skills but this is just going off of my lil post on archer and melee classes being able to attack as fast as they can tap the attack icon witch would be the icon you see your equipted weapon. All these classes except mages have a stamina stat and bar so you can see what your stamina is at just like your hp/mana bar every lvl up it automatically adds 1 point to your stamana stat witch each point adds 2.5% stamina to your stamina bar. The stamana allows you to attack as fast as you can tap "like a mages spell" if you run out of stamana you can still attack at the normal speed witch for most weapons is 7. Your stamina regenerates as fast as a mages mana does. The stamina does not add any strength to you it just allows you to attack quickly. For low range character's if the 2 range it would good on them as well. Witch leads to the skills (double arrow&double speed) they will no longer be needed they can bothe be changed to (double damage) like the ogre skill it will be beneficial but if we go through with this and combinding the speed and unfreez potions we should come up with stamina potions in the order of mana potions like +2 stamina, +4 stamina, +10 stamina, +20 stamina this would also need to have alittle extra work done to helms weapons plates and amulets adding some stamana points to them like there is mana + damage in a lot of mage gear. It would even the odds with the stunning weapons like freez shot, the throwing daggers/hatchets/fish being slowing and stunning weapons and if the freez shot is changed on archers from 1 freez shot per target to freez arrows untill the skill is out of time witch means if you have unfreez potions your better off taking the hits and healing for 30seconds. Imo the unfair battle would then be only because of a lvl difference. I did my lil thing putting a puzzle together ive even made a short video of my archer doing this I'll post it on facebook. Now its very possable ive waisted my time on it I'm getting that feeling on a lot ive posted this week but I'm doing what I think might help the game be one many contributers and I would like to continue to play. If you think this would be a bad idea then say so...

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 8:57 am
by Asmodeous
Would adding that stat then not spread skillpoints more thin? Or will everyone else then get an additional skillpoint per level?

Re: Concrete suggestions to balance classes etc.

Posted: Sun Aug 23, 2015 9:15 am
by LordSeth
I would say everyone should get an additional skill point but idk exactly how the formulas will be for sure atm its not all my decision I just threw in a thought that might end up being a big help in the long run but id like the players and GM team to talk it over on this thread so we all can be on the same page. But imo yes if this idea takes action I would say 1 extra point automatically goes to stamina for archers and melee each lvl up as well as 1 point goes to a mages mana automatically each lvl up. So without taking advantage of an extra point it will go to stamina or mana so. Im not positive but I think a lvl 0 mage starts with 2 mana so all non-magic character's should start with the equivalent abount of power juice as a mage lol. Yes its still possable for a mage to have the upper hand on a swordsman but that will all depend on the swordsmans stats + connection + pvp skills theres still a chance of survival.