Mage debate

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Ryaca
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Mage debate

Post by Ryaca » Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:30 am

I want to say something. I know that there are differences of opinion on this subject. I also want to say that there are players weighing in on this topic that have little to no experience in PvP with a high level mage (3k+) much less have a mage account that is 3k or higher so I believe their comments to be very naive. Now I've heard all the arguments, : mages spell damage is reduced by 50% in PvP, non-mage classes have gear that can give 95% spell resist(they fail to Mention that not every player has this gear but they try to deal in absolutes by making it sound like every player in the game has 95% spell resist gear), and my all time favorite, : players block my heal and use sieges as shields so mages are completely powerless and defenseless. I agree that players should NEVER be able to use sieges as shields. This is something that I cannot believe someone thought was even remotely reasonable to develop and put into the game(let's use an idea a five year old would find rational to put into the game). I disagree that mages ALWAYS HAVE HEAL BLOCKERS AROUND. When mages attack me (happens quite a bit) I am alone, so no heal blocking there, and they HEAL THEMSELVES JUST FINE IN THOSE MOMENTS, but mages try to make it seem like the scenarios they describe are absolutely all the time, trying to twist and spin the truth to suit their agenda. My advice is this, if you have never played a mage level 3k or higher or never fought a mage level 3k or higher, then you really have no idea what you are taking about and you obviously have not seen how ungodly powerful a mage is at that level or higher. A self healing mage spell... Give me a freaking break! Shaking my head and trying not to let the insanity infect me.
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Corrupter
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Re: Mage debate

Post by Corrupter » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:09 am

I've seen what mages can do, with this a mage would be a one man army. I voted no on new spell
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MadMikael
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Re: Mage debate

Post by MadMikael » Wed Oct 11, 2017 3:56 am

Ryaca wrote:I want to say something. I know that there are differences of opinion on this subject. I also want to say that there are players weighing in on this topic that have little to no experience in PvP with a high level mage (3k+) much less have a mage account that is 3k or higher so I believe their comments to be very naive. Now I've heard all the arguments, : mages spell damage is reduced by 50% in PvP, non-mage classes have gear that can give 95% spell resist(they fail to Mention that not every player has this gear but they try to deal in absolutes by making it sound like every player in the game has 95% spell resist gear), and my all time favorite, : players block my heal and use sieges as shields so mages are completely powerless and defenseless. I agree that players should NEVER be able to use sieges as shields. This is something that I cannot believe someone thought was even remotely reasonable to develop and put into the game(let's use an idea a five year old would find rational to put into the game). I disagree that mages ALWAYS HAVE HEAL BLOCKERS AROUND. When mages attack me (happens quite a bit) I am alone, so no heal blocking there, and they HEAL THEMSELVES JUST FINE IN THOSE MOMENTS, but mages try to make it seem like the scenarios they describe are absolutely all the time, trying to twist and spin the truth to suit their agenda. My advice is this, if you have never played a mage level 3k or higher or never fought a mage level 3k or higher, then you really have no idea what you are taking about and you obviously have not seen how ungodly powerful a mage is at that level or higher. A self healing mage spell... Give me a freaking break! Shaking my head and trying not to let the insanity infect me.
Alright, you sound heated... with good reason.

The big issue here is, everyone is only seeing this from their own limited point of view.... including myself.

No, I've never used a 3k+ mage. No, I don't do PvP much - except in self defense (almost like a rule or something...)
In my specific case, there is no one who could tell me I should not have a self heal spell. My mage is primarily a healer - that's what he does. He almost never has pets (unless I'm possibly crafting or doing a specific quest), but even when he does - he'll NEVER have sieges...
On occasion, I get some player-killer after my gear. Most often, when I'm in a crowd of lows tanking, surrounded by mobs and the players I'm protecting. Now here I have only few choices - I can try to fight, but healing myself is almost impossible. I can try to run, but that would likely get the low guys killed. Usually what I do is, try to kill the mobs, then unequip before I die. Hopefully, I can do this quick enough. Dying with honour, saving the new players, and hopefully my gear too. Xp is a small sacrifice.

Your case is talking about only higher level PvP - 3k+.
As you describe, and with all the "tricks" you list, sure, it makes perfect sense that a mage should NOT have a self heal spell. They're OP as it is. The siege thing is stupid, yes, and should be reworked completely, I agree. Of course, these higher level mages are PvP oriented (why else would you buy the levels?), and so most (if not all) will use the siege tactic to their advantage.

For all the others - they're all at various levels, and have different cases. Many are clanned and participate in PvP. Some are casual PvM players. We're also hearing from just about every type of class user. They all have differing views, based on who've they've faced, and what tricks they use.

This comes down to a base problem I mentioned in another thread. It's how the offensive power of a mage rises as they gain in level. It's a multiplication function. All other classes are linear. As long as this fact exists, balancing is nearly impossible...

I still think a self heal option should be available. Ultimately, a mage should be allowed to target who they want to heal, similar to how they target who they want to attack. You mention insanity? This idea is completely logical - if you simply consider the idea of what a mage can do in any rpg. It only gets messy when you apply it to the current state of mechanics. When you do that.... yes, I agree, high level mages having self heal would likely be a bad idea.

Also, I've mentioned your point about gear and spell resistance in the other thread - I myself will likely never have it or use it - that's again, my case, not everyone's.

It is highly improbable at this point that we can all agree on a strategy that will work. The only way it could is that if the self heal actually got weaker as a mage levels up. That might work. The higher your mana, the weaker the self heal. If any number-crunchers here want to take a crack at that one... go ahead.

Honestly though... I would go back the specialist idea... at a certain level (I'll say 500, only because I'm over it LOL), you have 3 choices. This would go for all classes, but let's focus on mage. You can go to one of two trainers, and "specialize" your class. If you choose a healer, you get self heal, maybe a stronger group heal, but serious PvP penalties to your abilities (especially offensive). PvM could be affected a little... but not as much as PvP. If you choose the offensive mage, you get another attack spell instead maybe - red flow? don't matter... what it does exactly, others can figure out and decide (I wanna be a healer)... but you may get a PvP boost (to be discussed), but a serious penalty on defensive spells (not just heal, but armor too), and definitely no self heal spell. There may (or may not) be a general stat boost to specializing. Of course, your 3rd option is to stay "generic". Similar options to specialize should be available to all classes, with a new skill for each (...and while we are at it... how about other classes equipping/unequipping skills? if you don't use them, why do they need to block your screen?)

Anyway... with this idea... if you want the self heal spell, you'll take a PvP nerf... if you want a PvP bonus, you'll get a heal (and armor spell) nerf... or you could just stay the way you are. I would like the stat boost though, as I would like to try and encourage all to specialize over being generic.

Here's another great point - if specialist classes are introduced - they could potentially work on completely different formulae - more balanced ones. If you make specializing a class more favourable over being generic - through stat bonuses, spell/skill additions, and possibly an overall large advantage over generic - you'll be encouraging all to choose the more balanced PvP formulae.

As for all the numbers, how it would work exactly and all that - well I'd leave number-crunching to the experts, and contributions to the community.
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MadMikael
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Re: Mage debate

Post by MadMikael » Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:24 am

Now here's a somewhat related story:

I basically stopped leveling my sword long ago - even though he was my first and favourite character... he's unable to compete or survive on his own. Don't give me your advice - I know what you'll say. I'd get bullied in PvP and stop using him... coming back when a new PvP update was introduced.

Originally, it was that slow spell... unfreeze didn't work on it. OH, forgot to mention... sword had a speed of 5 or 6 already (Ogres had it the worst, shout out to GOLGREN, who took it in stride), where mage had a speed of 9. Tack on a stacked slow spell... At level 120, a level 30 mage could kill me with slow and just a wand, dancing circles around me and laughing. Eventually - that changed. Slow could be countered, and classes were made the same speed.

Still though, I lost repeatedly. Why? I'd close in to hit... and they'd move. I'd close in again... they'd just move... and laugh again.
Ok... so stuns came a la throwing knife. Good idea? No. They'd unfreeze and move. Still, can't win a fight.
Pets made it absolutely worse IMO - pack space. I hate pets. Pets are broken IMO. They get in your way - constantly - and they're only good for one thing - dying. Since I couldn't play with pets, I'd always be mismatched - out-potioned. I'd never get close enough to land a hit.

So range 2 swords are added... alright cool, maybe I can win a single battle now.... nope. Can't get close enough to hit. They unfreeze and move.
On the rare instance I found someone without unfreeze pots... still a no. Why? Because when I clicked the ground next to them.... bubbles to chat or trade would pop up... oh that's useful. DON'T TELL ME TO USE THE FREAKING JOYSTICK! I CANNOT USE THE FREAKING JOYSTICK! I AM PHYSICALLY UNABLE TO USE IT. Although, when I did figure out how to map keys in the emulator, it was slightly easier.... but no, I still could not compete.

Conclusions:
Ranged classes should have to manually target somehow, and target again when their target moves.. not a simple "click on him and select the target bubble", more like "after selecting target bubble you have to move a target manually over them"... also, if you're ranged, you should have a lower hit % (that's how it is irl, and just about every rpg ever, it's logical if you think about it) ... and spells should not "always hit".... wth...

The game is biased against touch screen players. Joysticks need nerfing.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

This is the same sort of statement I'm seeing time and again in these other threads. Basically, since I'm not the greatest at using my character, others should be nerfed. Let's not confuse balance in game with balance of what players can physically do.

Alright, it is true, that touch screen and joystick are not created even. Joystick will always win in a race (unless it's a really short race, through a lot of obstacles). But the idea of nerfing joystick is silly. It's far better to improve the touch screen. Why do ranged classes have autotarget, while melee do not? The melee should have an advance to target option - to make up for the fact I can't click on the ground beside the target to attack them - the code exists already, we can do it now in the MMO with mobs. So why not players?

My points are these:
things can and do change in FT - it happens... for better or worse...
each time one of these "drastic changes" happened (as listed above, and others not listed), there were a crazy amount of account trades.... and yes, on a few, everyone was after my (at that time) decently levelled swordsman... (btw... asking a GM to sell their account is not a smart idea at times)
if any fundamental changes are done, it will likely be similar

all classes need work IMO - not just the mage... but nerfs are not really the best option I think; coming up with new solutions is better - especially as nerfs will anger so many already invested

over time, PvP can change drastically -3+ years ago, melee were at the whims of all ranged characters; it's closest now to balanced than it has ever been; so the idea of changing how PvP works is not a far-fetched idea

going with my previous two points, adding new mechanics for new "specialist" type classes will add new things without taking too much from the old (ok, your generic mage won't be so strong against a specialist.... but your mage will remain unchanged)

what can you do to make everyone happy? nothing.. it's not possible... I bet you, if compbatant announced he was going to mail everyone here cash, someone would still complain
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Ryaca
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Re: Mage debate

Post by Ryaca » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:10 am

It is time...
BOO!:ghost:
blitzcraig
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Re: Mage debate

Post by blitzcraig » Wed Oct 11, 2017 5:46 am

here's what most people are missing... the self heal spell would not allow the mage to outheal the attack from an attacker of the same level - I'll use fake numbers to illustrate:

level X mage vs. level X non-mage -

the non-mage average attack of 2500 per second (assuming dex is higher than mage of course)

the self heal spell for the mage of the same level would heal, let's say, 2000 per second (assuming most points in mana of course)

this would allow the mage to function properly against low level attackers, and not be forced to heal attackers (or waste time trying to target everybody)... AT THE SAME TIME, it would not give the mage any advantage against similarly leveled attackers... at best, the mage may extend time before death, but can't be attacking and healing at the same time.

with this in mind, are the complaints still valid?
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Re: Mage debate

Post by GOLGREN » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:32 am

GOLGREN EAT MAGES!!!!!!RAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRR!!!!!
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Re: Mage debate

Post by MadMikael » Wed Oct 11, 2017 6:36 am

GOLGREN wrote:GOLGREN EAT MAGES!!!!!!RAAAAAAAAAAAAAOOOOOOOOOOOOORRRRRRRR!!!!!

I mentioned you above ;)
MadMikael wrote:Originally, it was that slow spell... unfreeze didn't work on it. OH, forgot to mention... sword had a speed of 5 or 6 already (Ogres had it the worst, shout out to GOLGREN, who took it in stride), where mage had a speed of 9. Tack on a stacked slow spell... At level 120, a level 30 mage could kill me with slow and just a wand, dancing circles around me and laughing. Eventually - that changed. Slow could be countered, and classes were made the same speed.
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Re: Mage debate

Post by GOLGREN » Wed Oct 11, 2017 7:51 am

3K+MAGES TASTE FUNNY;}
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Arashiko
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Re: Mage debate

Post by Arashiko » Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:22 pm

GOLGREN wrote:3K+MAGES TASTE FUNNY;}
It's all the spell components they carry, old bean. Sulphide of potassium tends to leave a bad taste in the mouth, don't you know?
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